The issue: work-life balance
Paul C Brunson, 50, co-host of Married at First Sight and Celebs Go Dating, and head of global research at Tinder, has been with his wife and business partner, Jill, 50, for 32 years, married for 23. They have two sons, aged 10 and 13.
Paul and Jill met when they were placed in the same orientation group before enrolling at Old Dominion University in Virginia, US. “We had to do an academic test on the day and Jill got the highest score out of our group. I liked that. I thought, she’s super smart and I like how she looks,” says Paul.
“Both of our dads had accompanied us to the event and unbeknown to us they were already chatting to one another,” says Jill. “I liked that.”
The biggest area of disagreement for the couple is how to combine work and family life. “It’s about work-life balance, not in terms of routines and time but arguments about business decisions and how those might affect the other parts of our lives,” explains Jill.
Most of the conflict stems from issues about the nuts and bolts of running a company. (Jill co-manages their business interests, which include TV shows, relationship advice and entrepreneurship.) “It’s mundane stuff – who are we bringing into a project and how much do we pay them? What are we investing our money in? What’s the long-range plan? These things come up time and time again,” says Paul.
By nature, Jill is cautious and usually wants to consider carefully the downside of ambitious plans, taking into account things such as the state of the economy and the impact on their family. “I am risk-averse while Paul is a born risk-taker. So we have long debates on things. Paul is persuasive and likes to try to get his own way a lot, but I do put up a good fight!”
It’s a hot topic for them on the day we speak because they are in the midst of deciding whether to go with a huge new project. “Jill is strongly against it,” says Paul.
“No, that’s not right. I just think we shouldn’t do it right away,” says Jill. Later, they tell me they have decided to proceed with it.
As a relationship coach, Paul says he is generally in favour of conflict in relationships because it means the couple are working through points of disagreement. “You want to have arguments – it means you’re building the tools to communicate. Then the next time something comes up, you have a new set of tools, so you become stronger in your relationship.”
Jill gives him an eye-roll. “Sometimes he needs to take the relationship expert hat off.”
However, Jill recently scored a victory for their work-life balance when she finally persuaded her husband to get a dog. “We got a chihuahua, the exact one I wanted.”
Paul agrees that this was a major win. “Because I did not want that dog.” Why? “Do you have an hour … The time commitment, the strain on our schedule, also because we travel a lot and with a dog you’ve got to preplan more. Then there’s medical expenses, also dogs shed hair everywhere, and I like to keep things neat.”
Jill shoots him a look.
It took two years before he relented. “I agreed to get Peter Gabriel” – named after one of Jill’s favourite artists – “Ultimately, relationships are about compromise but also about sacrifice – that is something people don’t often talk about. I will sacrifice my pain points about the dog for Jill’s pleasure in having him. Jill has done the same for me over investments she didn’t want us to do.”
“In the end, we both want the same things,” says Jill, “so if one person is able to put at ease any concerns the other person has, then we’re willing to compromise. We’re not really people who are going to dig our heels in for the sake of making a point.”
Paul C Brunson’s podcast We Need to Talk launches on 9 September
The issue: refusal to clear away used coffee pods
Psychotherapist Charlotte Fox Weber, 41, and husband Robbie Smith, 44, who runs Library Rooms therapy spaces, have been together for 16 years. They met as teenagers in West Cork. They have two sons aged four and nine.
Charlotte and Robbie are self-confessed coffee addicts. Before leaving the house in the morning, Charlotte has two lattes while Robbie opts for a triple espresso with a splash of froth. He sets out the problem. “We are both too lazy to make fresh ground coffee so we rely on the Nespresso machine. We have one where, if you have a lot of shots, then the little tray of used pods gets full. At which point, most sane people would just empty it into the bin. But Charlotte doesn’t believe in doing that.”
Instead, by her own admission, she prefers to dump the used pod tray on the worktop then make one fresh coffee for herself without a tray, creating more mess. “I honestly think Charlotte believes that a magic Nespresso fairy will appear and tidy it all up. This is only a little grievance but it’s a daily bug that niggles. I mean, I can’t freak out over it. I can’t go to a marriage counsellor about espresso mess, can I?”
Charlotte doesn’t deny it. So why does she do it if she knows it’s the source of argument? “Because I don’t feel like making the effort. I know it’s passive-aggressive of me, but I do a lot in the house. What’s a bit of coffee mess in the great scheme of things?” She points out that she leads an extremely busy life. “The consequence is, I can end up not being as tidy as I’d like to be.”
So, although they both have full schedules, the job of tidying falls to Robbie. “But to be clear, that’s not my complaint,” he laughs. “My point is that to make fresh coffee, she has to take the container out anyway, so why not finish the job and put the pods in the bin? It reminds me of when I was a kid and my mum would tell me to brush my teeth. I hated doing it. She would stand outside the door saying, ‘I can’t hear you brushing.’ So instead of doing it, I would brush the door!”
Charlotte interjects. “He made more effort brushing the door than he would have done brushing his teeth.” Which is surely her husband’s point? “Ah, but it’s not the same thing. By not tidying the coffee away, I am punishing him; it means he has to do it.”
Robbie believes that the whole argument is based on resentment about pregnancy and motherhood. “You carried our two children for nine months and delivered them, and I haven’t done that. So now you’re getting me back for all the other crimes of the patriarchy.”
Charlotte: “Yes, this is my mini-feminist rebellion. But also, I should add that if I’m dressed and ready to go to work, I don’t want to get coffee mess on me. I need to be tidy, even if the house isn’t.”
Does Charlotte’s background in therapy change how they think about these things? “I think therapists make the worst therapy clients,” says Robbie. “Like how some doctors don’t look after their own health.” Charlotte: “That’s a weird denigration, no wonder I’m punishing you with the coffee pods.”
Over the years, Charlotte says she has occasionally attempted to mend her ways for the sake of marital harmony. “Sometimes, I do tidy the pods away, but he doesn’t always notice. My good behaviour gets less attention than when I revert to my foibles.”
But Robbie is unconvinced. “It’s interesting to hear you say that because I’ve never seen that happen. Maybe I thought our cleaner had done it. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine you would have done it.”
Charlotte mentions that it’s only at home that this is an issue. When she visits family members, she tidies up after herself. “Maybe if I had a new coffee machine things would be better?”
I leave them bickering about which coffee machine would put an end to the issue once and for all.
The issue: getting in each other’s way in the kitchen
Gay, 79, and Katie Hendricks, 75, are founders of the Hendricks Institute and co-authors of Conscious Loving. They have been together for 44 years.
Gay and Katie Hendricks met when she attended a lecture he was giving on his new self-help book. “During the break, I went over to ask him a question, but before I could say anything, he turned to me and announced: ‘I’m very attracted to you.’”
Gay interrupts to say: “What I actually said was, ‘I feel very attracted to you. And I’d like to ask you out for a cup of coffee. But I wanted to let you know that I’ve recently decided to only have relationships where both people take responsibility for things rather than blaming or criticising the other person. So on those terms, would you like to have a cup of coffee?’”
“I decided to up the ante and suggested lunch,” says Katie with a laugh. “Thirty-two trips around the world and numerous books and TV shows later, we are still together.”
Despite being relationship experts, they have one recurring argument they’ve only recently started to talk about. “It goes back to when we first got together,” explains Katie. “I like to think I’m a great cook and my caesar salad definitely helped to cement our relationship.”
But from the outset, a pattern emerged. Whenever Gay was in the kitchen and Katie came in, he would invariably ask: “Am I in your way?”
“I should point out that we have a huge kitchen with plenty of space,” says Gay. “Yet I would always feel that I was in the way of whatever she needed to do. I would usually stop unloading the dishwasher or whatever and back out of the room.”
It might sound trivial, but it was not. “He would say it with a particular tone, I would hear an edge,” explains Katie. “I heard it as a criticism, that I was in his way. It would bring my mood down.”
Only recently did it occur to Katie that this was a pattern that was worth examining. “Many couples have conflicts rooted in the kitchen – it’s where we got our nourishment and nurturing by our caregivers, it’s where many patterns are born.”
As it happens, there was a lot more to the “Am I in your way?” question. “My mother was a busy newspaper columnist and she only wanted one child. Unfortunately, that was my older brother,” says Gay. “When I arrived on the scene, I was literally in the way. Plus the kitchen was a tiny and incredibly fraught space growing up. She would be on deadline at the kitchen table typewriter.”
Katie realised that there was a good reason why she was being triggered by the argument, too. “It was creating a feeling of sadness and not belonging that came from the way my mother behaved in the kitchen, which was defensive about her terrible cooking and always critical.”
They both felt much better after having identified the roots of the issue, but that doesn’t mean it has magically disappeared. “When something like this gets uncovered, it’s not a one-time deal to fix it,” says Katie. “It’s not like, oh it’s all settled now.” Things are, however, slowly progressing. Recently, Gay asked his wife if he was in her way but then burst out laughing.
Katie laughed, too, before informing him that he was not in her way because she was going to be chopping vegetables in one corner and then doing something on the other side of the room. “I think it’s been helpful to announce what I’m doing in the space to reassure him. Just giving that information is like a recommitment to this new way of behaving.”
They both agree that they have learned a lot about themselves by being willing to take the issue seriously and investigate it. “With these deep patterns, the resulting conflict really allows you to shine a light on all corners of it, and start clearing things up,” says Gay. “Plus, it makes it a lot easier for Katie to make her wonderful homemade pesto in peace.”
The issue: making social plans without consulting the other person
Henika Patel, 31, founder of yoga and tantra business the School of Sensual Arts, and author of Sensual, is marrying Stephen Mix, 42, who works in mergers and acquisitions, this month.
Henika and Stephen were a “Covid couple” who met on Hinge in 2020. “At the time, it felt like everyone in London was on there looking for love,” says Henika. “We chatted for more than six weeks before meeting in real life – an eternity when it comes to dating apps.”
She had recently returned to the UK from travelling in Asia and China. Stephen was happily single with a long-established circle of close friends, many of whom lived nearby. They had both been single for 18 months. Since getting together, their competing social lives have been an unexpected source of friction.
“There’s this assumption now that we come as a unit, and it’s caused arguments and mix-ups,” says Stephen. “For example, one of us might say to the other: ‘Oh, I’ve said we will go to X’s this weekend’, or, ‘I’ve said we will go and visit my mum on Sunday.’ Then the other person doesn’t want to do it or has other plans. That has been a big thing between us. Basically, neither of us really likes being told what to do or having plans made for them.”
Stephen mentions that he is a fan of structure. “I love a to-do list and a diary.” By contrast, Henika relishes spontaneity. “I love having an open day and seeing what unfolds.”
Extra stress arises for Henika with weekend plans because, as a workshop leader, she often teaches on Saturday mornings or Sunday evenings. Lack of communication has contributed to the pressure. “Sometimes, I would get home and be looking forward to a nice relaxing evening ahead all to myself,” says Henika, “only to discover that Stephen has arranged for us to go out with his friends and I’ve got to get ready.”
The couple have implemented an obvious if unromantic solution – setting up joint Apple calendars. Stephen’s calendar is blue, Henika’s is pink and their joint calendar is coloured green. But so far they have learned they are in fact human beings, not programmable robots. “One time, Stephen’s best friend had invited us for dinner. She nicknames us ‘Kate and Wills’ because she reckons she has to book us in months in advance because our social life is so busy. Anyway, Stephen forgot to put it in the calendar or tell me, so we didn’t turn up.”
They only recently moved in together and are still getting used to being in an accountable partnership. “Stephen is 11 years older than me so I guess it might be harder for him to adapt to considering another person’s plans,” says Henika.
“I think that’s fair,” says Stephen. “Also, I have never lived with a partner before. We are both very independent. You have to respect the other person but the closer you get, the more your lives become intertwined. Add a big Indian family into that mix and it can get complicated.”
Henika says that within her family there is a cultural expectation that you will attend the many extended-family gatherings. “My parents are first-generation immigrants, so the family network was their social life. For me, it’s different. I have friends from a much broader network of school, university and work.”
“Despite my job,” Henika says, “I really didn’t know how to handle conflict in my own relationships when we got together. Now we use a four-step process called nonviolent communication. It’s all about how to express your needs without hurting the other person.”
While joint calendars have helped to streamline their schedules, it hasn’t been foolproof. “Communication is key,” says Stephen. “We check in with one another and talk about how we each want to spend our time.”
The issue: punctuality
Andrew G Marshall, 65, marital therapist and host of The Meaningful Life podcast, and his husband, vocal coach Ignacio Jarquin, 59, have been together for 23 years.
Andrew met Ignacio when someone dropped out of a dinner party he was hosting and a friend brought Ignacio to make up the numbers. “It’s a bit of an exaggeration to say Ignacio never left, but not much of one.”
Ignacio is Mexican. At the time, he had only recently moved to the UK. “I’m an actor and singer. My voice is loud and I’m always expressing myself with my hands. My communication style is the opposite of the stiff upper lip.” Andrew, by contrast, grew up in a “very middle-class family” where nobody raised their voices. “The most intense emotion was a cool sulk. My parents believed that feelings only made things more complicated. Ironically, I was always told that I was over-sensitive. I had the idea that I was too emotional – until I met Ignacio.”
The flashpoint for their arguments is punctuality. “Andrew is very conscious about being on time,” says Ignacio. “And when he says ‘on time’ what he actually means is turning up a long time ahead.”
Andrew is having none of it. “Yes, but the Mexican idea of arriving on time … if the meeting was at 3pm, he would believe that turning up at 3.30 was punctual.”
Ignacio admits he finds timekeeping a challenge. “It can feel like an unnecessary waste of time, particularly when arriving at airports. I just know we’re going to be hanging around for hours with nothing to do.”
Andrew points out that Ignacio has missed several flights in his life. “I wasn’t with him any of those times.”
The rows and stress, especially around travel, have led them to come up with some strategies to tackle the issue. Andrew is now allowed to decide the exact time they leave the house if they are going anywhere with a hard deadline. However, as Ignacio is the designated driver, he is allowed to decide on the route. “I am banned from intervening, complaining or commenting, no matter how far in advance Andrew wants to leave,” says Ignacio, laughing. “This is very difficult for me!”
However, he is not above getting revenge by playing pranks once they arrive at the airport. “Sometimes I pretend that the airline is calling out our names and summoning us to the gate because we are late. Andrew keeps falling for it. He gets very upset and worried, then finally realises it’s another of my jokes.”
Andrew agrees that humour helps defuse the stress and admits that he gets his obsession with timekeeping from his parents. “In my family, we refer to ‘Marshall time’. My parents once turned up for lunch at 10am on Christmas Day. Ignacio was still having breakfast. And they turned up hours early for our wedding. I’m more relaxed now that I realise that I’m like this because it’s a habit that’s been passed down through generations.”
Ignacio says he has learned to rein in his more colourful outbursts. “At the start of our relationship, I was very explosive. Now I just take time out, and Andrew knows I need a couple of days before we can talk.”
For his part, Andrew observes that Ignacio probably doesn’t always understand what’s going on under his cool British exterior. “Often I’m working incredibly hard to stay calm. I’m desperate for him to get going for a journey but I’m determined not to push him to leave. That said, I would quite like us to leave at the time Ignacio said he was going to leave.”
Ignacio is unlikely to change his ways completely. “The way I see it, there’s always another flight, it’s no big deal. But I also believe you should chose your fights wisely. What time we set off in the great scheme of things is not important. If I agree to Andrew’s suggestion, it’s a way to create harmony. In relationships, it’s the little things, not the big things, that are make or break.”